Author Topic: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)  (Read 4346 times)

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Offline Desi

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If you have a "Ragdoll-like cat," you are welcome to post here and be a member of our community.  This information is for educational purposes.  If you are in the process of buying, or are looking to buy Ragdoll, you will want to know this information before completing your purchase.

Mink cats are not Ragdolls.  They do not have the genetics to be Ragdolls.  Any breeder purporting to breed mink "ragdolls" is not telling the truth.  Let's review what a Ragdoll is:

First and foremost, a Ragdoll is a Blue Eyed, Pointed cat, with semi-long hair and an affectionate, puppy-dog like character. 

A Mink (sepia, solid, or Blue Eyed White/BEW) cat DOES NOT have 1. Blue Eyes, and 2. Points.  Because they are not pointed or blue eyed. What is a Ragdoll?

Here is what the registries and clubs say about what a Ragdoll is:

So, no, Mink, Sepia, Solid, or Blue Eyed White cats are not rare Ragdolls, they are not Ragdolls at all.  They do not demand a higher price, because in fact they are not Ragdolls.  They are not "rare" in the sense of a "rare" Ragdoll "color" because a Ragdoll cannot be any of those patterns or colors.  If anything, they should be given away as moggies, with a small rehoming fee, and free health insurance (because a breeder that breeds these cats has no idea what they're doing and is probably selling a sick cat at a premium price).

Do you have a Mink, Sepia, Solid, or BEW that has papers?  That's because in order to be registered in a registry, ONLY ONE of the cat's parents have to be a Ragdoll.  For more on how Registries and registration papers are no guarantee that your cat is a Ragdoll, please see The Truth About Registries

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My breeder breeds Minks (etc) but the cat I'm getting is a Traditional Blue Point (Seal Point, etc).

The problem is that cats that are bred together to produce Minks (etc) can also produce Traditional-looking Ragdolls, and these cats are not Ragdolls either.  Because genetics.




« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 01:56:46 am by Desi »
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Offline HelenMac

Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2016, 05:23:03 am »
Wish this forum was running when I had Tigga.  Very grateful for those that accepted me and my precious boy and made us welcome alot of whom are here now for the short time he was with us and explains why so many health problems.  Thanks Desi  for  posting this it helps me understand how I was caught out and how come he came registered as a ragdoll.  I'm so grateful we were able to provide him with a loving nuturing home for his short life even if it did break my heart loosing him.  Still missed to this day my darling boy and forever will be.   
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Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2016, 05:23:03 am »

Offline Desi

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Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 01:30:48 am »
Recent conversations on this topic:

Q> Solid Seal Bi-Color Male. I think? Notice the white underfur showing through at elbows.
He is considered a purebred Ragdoll by TICA. But, maybe the color isn't recognized or hasn't been voted in? Can you breed your Purebred Ragdoll with other Purebred breeds and still be considered a purebred Ragdoll (I read that on a message board)?

A> TICA is a registry...self-reported by a breeder, and if the breeder is unknowledgeable or untruthful (as is clear in this case), they can say whatever they want, and nobody will fact-check.
http://ragdollcatsunited.com/smf/index.php?topic=122.0

All Ragdolls are blue eyed, pointed cats, of which your cutie is neither. I'm not sure what a white undercoat has to do with anything, since Ragdolls are not supposed to have an undercoat.

That doesnít make him less cute though, so enjoy him (just donít breed him expecting purebred Ragdolls). http://ragdollcatsunited.com/smf/index.php?topic=50.0

Q> Alright, so.. let's say you have a litter of 8 kittens. Four of them are pointed and four are non-pointed. It sounds strange to say, these four are Ragdolls and these four are something else..

A> Because none of them are Ragdolls. Because you need 2 Ragdoll parents to make a Ragdoll, and if one of the kittens is solid, then clearly one of the parents (or somewhere in the lineage) was not a Ragdoll. Check out my links, this is all explained there. And the reasons one might (or not) want to avoid breeders breeding mixed cats and selling them as Ragdolls (a true Ragdoll breeder would be knowledgeable about this and a whole lot more) are there too.

A Ragdoll is not just a Ragdoll- looking cat, itís a cat that was purposely bred as a Ragdoll. The Ragdoll Cat Fanciers decide these things, not TICA.

Plenty of cats are Ragdoll looking. Mixed, moggies, even other purebred cats. You canít tell by looking, you can tell by genes. And the only way to ensure that is a reputable breeder. A breeder that breeds solids and calls them Ragdolls is either not knowledgeable or is outright lying. Sorry....

Edit: For example, Birman cats are really difficult to distinguish from Ragdolls if you go just by the looks: https://www.cuteness.com/article/differences-between-ragdoll-birman-cats (link for photo comparison purpose, I didnít read the article)


Another answer by someone else> This boy isnít a ragdoll at all, nor is he purebred. Responsible breeding programs for Ragdolls are extremely important because Ragdolls are a relatively new breed and should never be bred by breeders who do not register their kittens, breeding programs, and submit pedigree information with TICA or other cat fancier associations. Ragdolls must be bred based on pedigrees by responsible breeders with active breeding programs which plan their lines several generations out. This is vital because Ragdolls must be bred with other Ragdolls which are at least four genetic degrees of separation from themselves.

Itís super irresponsible for hobby breeders to cross Ragdolls with other breeds. If you donít have the $ to compensate a good breeder for a good contract, healthy ragdoll kitten, who comes with HCM testing, a pedigree, and instructions for taking care of the kittens properly, then you should consider adopting a kitty instead. Ragdolls also need significantly more care for the first four years of their life than other breeds of cats because Ragdolls are kittens technically until they are four years old because they are a large, slow growing breed. If the kitten is a pet quality cat, they should cost you between~ $700 $1k USD for a PET QUALITY to accurately compensate a breeder for the cost of raising and feeding healthy, happy ragdoll kittens for the full 12 weeks at their cattery before they can go to a new home. Any pet quality ragdoll from a responsible breeder will include that the kitten must be neutered/spayed before reaching sexual maturity, AND that they must never be declawed or let outdoors because they donít have the same kill instincts as other cats. Show quality or breeding quality Ragdolls will cost double to triple the price or more.

If your ragdoll doesnít come with all these things, they are not a responsibly bred Ragdoll at all. My ragdoll breeder friends have also said they see other breeders often trying to lie about a ragdollís health or coloring. (E.g. with selling Minks as ďheritage RagdollsĒ or selling light blues or light seals as lilac and chocolate point respectively when in reality, their genes donít carry lilac or chocolate lines.

In my opinion, itís much better to rescue a cat that needs love than support irresponsible and inhumane breeding practices.

And the frustrating response> Idk, he is registered as a purebred Ragdoll. And, I am more apt to believe his TICA paper-trail and breeders that I know and trust... over the breeders online coming at me all snobbish.
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Offline Desi

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Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2019, 02:11:58 am »
A chart outlining the genetic difference between Sepia, Mink, and Colorpoint (source).  Colorpoint is a recessive gene, so in order to be expressed, you need two colorpoint parents.  The gene for colorpoint is notated as cs or cb.  If the cat has two cb parents, the cat will be sepia (Burmese).  If the cat has one cs parent and one cb parent, the cat will be mink (Tonkinese).  If the cat has two cs parents, the cat will be colorpointed (Siamese, Himalayan, Ragdoll).


From CFA:
Basic Feline Genetics

The following statements are generally true but there are exceptions. This information is not meant to be a complete manual on cat genetics. For more information, please refer to books on the subject.

When the term COLOR is used, it refers to color only (blue, cream, black, red, etc.). When PATTERN is used, it refers to pattern only (tabby, shaded, smoke, etc.). When both are affected, the statement will contain the term COLOR/PATTERN.


Male kittens always obtain both color genes from the dam. The male offspring in a litter will always be either the color of the dam (or one of the colors in the case of parti-colors) or the dilute form of the dam's color. See the statement on dilutes for more information (see #21 & #24).
 
Female kittens take one color gene from each parent. The color of the female kittens in a litter will always be either a combination of the sire's and dam's colors, or the dilute form of those colors (see #21 & #24). 
 
To obtain any of the red or cream color/patterns in female kittens, the sire must be one of the red or cream color/patterns PLUS the dam must in some form demonstrate red or cream (see #21). 
 
Only the immediate parents determine the color/pattern of a kitten. The color/patterns found in the pedigree of a kitten will NOT always directly affect the color/pattern of the kitten. One notable exception is the colorpoint gene, which can carry through a number of generations (see #21 & #24).
 
A kitten's pattern can be inherited from either parent.
 
A dominant characteristic (all dominant colors and patterns such as shaded, smoke, white, tabby, bi-color, etc.) cannot skip generations. The characteristic cannot be transmitted from one generation to the next without showing that characteristic in each generation. 
 
A cat displaying a dominant color (black, red, tortie, etc.) must have a parent which displays a dominant color (see #21).
 
Two recessive color parents (cream, blue, etc.) cannot produce an offspring of a dominant color (black, red, etc.).
 
Two colorpointed parents cannot produce a non-colorpointed offspring.
 
To get a colorpointed kitten, both parents must be carrying the colorpointed gene (even if they do not appear colorpointed themselves).
 
The mating of a colorpointed cat and a cat with no colorpointed background will produce NO colorpointed offspring.
 
A (non-silver) tabby must have at least one parent that is either a shaded or a tabby. A silver tabby must have at least one silver tabby, shaded or smoke parent (see #13).
 
All red cats will have some tabby markings. Whether or not a red can produce as a tabby will depend on whether it is a true tabby with a tabby or shaded parent or whether it is a red with ghost tabby markings and neither a tabby nor a shaded parent. A red tabby that is not a true tabby cannot produce a tabby offspring of any other color without being bred to a true tabby or a shaded. 
 
A cat with a white undercoat (smoke or shaded) must have a parent that has a white undercoat (see #21).
 
A shaded cat must have at least one parent that is a shaded (see #21).
 
A shaded parent can produce a smoke offspring, but a non-shaded (smoke) parent cannot produce a shaded offspring unless bred to a shaded (see #21). 
 
A bi-color must have a bi-color parent (see #21). 
 
Parti-color cats (blue-cream, tortie, calico) are almost always female, but males can and do occur occasionally (and are not always sterile).
 
A white cat must have a white parent.
 
A white cat breeds as both a white (which you see) and a masked color (which you don't see) and can produce based on both white and the unseen color/pattern. The masked color/pattern must be determined, based on the white's pedigree and the offspring produced in a controlled breeding, in order to effectively predict the color/pattern of the expected offspring. Interestingly, white kittens may have a small spot of color on top of their heads when born. This color should be noted as it is the color that the white is masking and the color that the cat will breed as when an adult. The spot of color may be visible for several months, but often disappears as the kitten matures.
 
Genetics for solid white cats can affect the possible color/pattern of expected kittens in that the white parent may be masking the color/pattern needed to produce this result.
 
Two longhair parents cannot produce a shorthair kitten.
 
Two classic tabby parents cannot produce a mackerel, spotted, or ticked tabby kitten. A ticked tabby must have a ticked tabby parent. A mackerel or spotted tabby must have a mackerel, spotted, or ticked tabby parent (see #21).
 
The dilute gene must be present in both the sire and dam's pedigree in order to produce a dilute offspring.
 
The chocolate or lilac gene must be present in both the sire and dam's pedigree in order to produce chocolate or lilac offspring.

http://messybeast.com/colour-charts.htm

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/catcolors.html
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 02:24:55 am by Desi »
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Offline Desi

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Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 02:13:45 am »
White cats (dominant white/W) with blue eyes have a high likelihood of deafness. https://icatcare.org/advice/inherited-deafness-in-white-cats/ "If a white cat has 2 blue eyes, it is 3-5 times more likely to be deaf than a cat with 2 non-blue eyes, and a cat with 1 blue eye is about twice as likely to be deaf as a cat with 2 non-blue eyes. In addition, longhaired white cats are 3 times more likely to be bilaterally deaf."

Cornell University CVM has this to say: "Researchers found that only 17 to 22 percent of white cats with non-blue eyes are born deaf. The percentage rises to 40 percent if the cat has one blue eye, while upwards of 65 to 85 percent of all-white cats with both eyes blue are deaf. Some of these cats are deaf in only one ear. Interestingly, if a white cat with one blue eye is deaf in only one ear, that ear will invariably be on the same side of the head as the blue eye."

Anyone purposefully breeding cats with a high likelihood of deafness is a backyard breeder. Try asking them why they're breeding white cats? It's always some form of "to make money" (as opposed to "to better the breed"). Breeding is not a money-making activity. If breeding makes money, then you're cutting corners that shouldn't be cut, and the kittens always pay the price.

Ragdolls are colorpointed cats (recessive white/cs). They start out as kittens showing white color because their bodies are warm, but as they age the cooler points/extremities darken. The recessive white gene is not linked to deafness (not to be confused with aloofness). Siamese cats have this same gene (cs).
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Re: The Truth about Minks (and Sepias and Solids and Blue-Eyed Whites)
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2019, 02:13:45 am »