Author Topic: What is a Reputable Breeder? How do I find a Reputable Breeder?  (Read 943 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Desi

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 459
  • Thanked: 67 times
  • tired lol
    • RagdollCatsUnited.com
  • About me: Owned by a Ragdoll
You've heard people say "find a Reputable breeder"--but what exactly does that mean?

It does not mean a random person with big fluffy cats that is selling them in your neighborhood, or in your state.
It does not mean a breeder your next door neighbor knows about.
It does not mean someone selling cats that your coworker or boss or whomever says is "good" because the kitten they bought appears healthy.

What it means is someone who has participated in the Cat Fancy, and has a good reputation *within the Cat Fancy.*  This means someone who shows/has shown their cats, which means that a judge has evaluated at least one cat and the cat's pedigree.  It means that other cat club members know and know from firsthand knowledge this person to be breeding cats to club standard (appearance, health, personality, pedigree).  It *could* mean that this person has had cats placed or won in competition, but it doesn't have to (although wouldn't it be fun to adopt a mismarked offspring from a Grand Champion?).

****************

How to find a Ragdoll cat breeder. Here is one way to approach finding a reputable breeder. This is likely good for any breed of cat, but will address Ragdolls since this is the Ragdoll subreddit.

A cat is only a purebred cat because it meets the standards of the cat associations. The standards set by the cat associations include things such as physical characteristics and personality, but they also include lineage and whether outcrosses are permitted. Ragoll standards for all clubs/registries currently state: Outcrosses: none. This means that a kitten with one Ragdoll parent is not a Ragdoll. A cat that happens to look like a Ragdoll is not a Ragdoll. A cat from a shelter is not a Ragdoll. Note that these other options are still great pets, but if you are trying to buy a Ragdoll, it's likely that you'd actually like to get a Ragdoll for your money.

The best way to make sure you get an actual Ragdoll (and not a cat that happens to look like a Ragdoll but isn't one) is to find a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder is one that participates in the cat fancy: is a member in good standing of a cat club, participates in cat shows, and has a standing (not just "membership" but actual standing) in at least one cat association--in the US, that would be TICA, CFA, or ACFA. Note that "member of TICA" means nothing if the member has no standing within the organization. TICA does not certify any breeders as fit and even state on their website that it is up to prospective buyers to do their own due diligence on any potential breeder before conducting business.

The best way to find a reputable breeder is to attend cat shows and talk to breeders. Since attending a cat show isn't exactly easy in this year of the pandemic, the next best way is to research past cat show entrants and talk to them. This isn't as hard as it might seem, as TICA and CFA publish lists for your convenience: Here is The Cat Fancier's Association (CFA)'s "Top cat list" https://cfa.org/ragdoll/ragdoll-top-cats/ and TICA's "list of champions" https://ticamembers.org/standing/2019/RD/ Ragdoll Fancier's Worldwide "Cream of the Crop" http://rfwclub.org/Show.htm

You might be tempted to check out club "member lists" but remember the caveat above, membership in a club is not enough, the breeder should also have standing--proof that they've participated in cat fancy activities. They do not need to have grand champion lines (but wouldn't it be nice?), but when a cat is shown, the pedigree is checked, because a cat can only be shown in a category for which it is eligible. Telltale signs that they're a backyard breeder include no standing in any association (other than "member of" or the false "TICA certified" which does not exist), "rare" colored cats, or any cats that are mink, sepia, solid, or white, as none of these cats would be eligible to be shown, since they are mixed breeds and not Ragdolls, and they do not meet the standards set by the cat clubs.

Once you've narrowed down a list of potential reputable breeders in your area, TALK to people. Ask for references. Then talk to the references. Ask breeders about other breeders. Much easier to do at a cat show, but there are many ways to communicate.

Remember that your goal is to find a breeder that breeds to breed standards and "to better the breed," which essentially means breeding healthy cats that meet those standards. Every Ragdoll cat standard starts with the assertion that a Ragdoll is a blue eyed, colorpointed cat. Only a colorpointed cat will have blue eyes; only blue eyed cats will be colorpointed. Many reputable breeders prominently display a website badge that says "True Ragdolls Have BLUE Eyes Because they are a Pointed Breed."
« Last Edit: December 30, 2021, 09:47:01 pm by Desi »
  • Desmond the Ragdoll, Duma the Savannah, and Baby Bobbie Dylan child of the mean streets, poetess and occasional musician.
I think it's fixed now
 

Offline Desi

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 459
  • Thanked: 67 times
  • tired lol
    • RagdollCatsUnited.com
  • About me: Owned by a Ragdoll
Re: What is a Reputable Breeder?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2021, 09:31:11 pm »
This is about dogs, but much of the same logic can be applied to cats.  Will notate where the logic is different (because cat breed means something different than dog breed)  This is a discussion amongst veterinarians.  Veterinarians, while typically (99.999999%, or really 100% in my experience) unknowledgeable about the cat fancy, are more likely to be knowledgeable about the dog fancy.

Q> Why is color so concerning when all health parameters are met?

A> Because in many cases the colour was introduced through cross breeding or may be associated with a health concern. A bit different when it is naturally occurring in the breed. Also note that many GSDs "carry" DM - and there's a lot more to health testing than just DNA testing.

The issues often lies with the initial introduction of the colour. Then you get "colour breeders" producing off standard puppies for extra money. Often these people do minimal or no health testing, no titles on the breeding dogs etc - just not ethical breeding. There are exceptions but mostly you aren't going to find ethically bred off colour dogs because reputable breeders aren't going to try to create them

Because the color indicates the presence of another breed in the pedigree of the dog. Responsible breeders don't breed mixed breed dogs and try to pass them off as purebred.

Breeding your dog would not be considered responsible, and whoever she came from was not a reputable breeder because they did not follow the breed standard. Breeding dogs is way more than just health testing, it is also making sure the pups you produce meet the physical characteristics of their breed, and have the correct temperament (which varies between breeds).

 the fact that your dog has two copies of DM gene demonstrates that she was not from a thoughtful ethical breeder. And in previous posts it seems she also had an umbilical hernia so she had a few things that would make it not ethical to breed her.

Q> yes. My breeder friend bought her from Russia. Found out that she had these issues and sold her for a pet when I promised to spay. That's ethical breeding. Having paid thousands for a dog and then taking a huge hit by selling her for pennies with the new owner knowing what's wrong.

A>In addition, as far as GSD go, to get colors like “blue” you must either breed 2 dogs who both carry the recessive genes but don’t express them and hope they will produce it, or 2 that do express that color. So in your situation, was the breeder trying to get that color? I would assume probably so, and in addition anything with “silver” means the pigment is poor (dilute) which is another thing good GSD breeders want to breed against, not for. When you look to produce a color that is recessive, you are narrowing the gene pool significantly. GSD are not a healthy breed already, so when you are narrowing the gene pool that much, finding a dog worthy of being bred is extremely hard.
To be an ethical GSD breeder, the dog should pass all health testing, come from generations of dogs that also passed, and be temperament tested (shown, competed in dog sports, etc this is sort of a can of worms but SOMETHING) because there are far too may shepherds being produced with poor temperaments. Good breeders often go through lots of females to get one that meets all the criteria.
Off color shepherds cannot be shown, and it is very rare to see them competing in dog sports.
There’s so much more that goes into dog breeding than just passing a list of health testing. That’s the tip of the iceberg. You have to also look at the whole dog (for example, does this dog have allergy issues? Auto immune disease? Missing teeth or an off bite? Does the dog have anxiety issues or can’t be handled by strangers without having a melt down? Things like that. Some criteria are in the grey area, some are acceptable or not depending on who you ask. I would never buy a puppy from parents who got car sick or have less than good food drive for example).

I should also add that my opinion on long-coat Dals is the same as silver Labs. Even while genetically possible, it’s not breed standard. Standards are set for a reason. When you start breeding for “non standard”, that’s when the waters get muddied and cross-breds get passed off as “purebreds” Labs get bred with Wiemeraners, Pomeranians become merle in color, etc. In my book, breeding off-standard has no place in responsible, ethical breeding.

Reputable breeders aren't going to even have recessive traits that are potentially linked to another breed. E.g., silver Labradors, white Dobermans, merle Frenchies, etc will never show up in a well bred litter because the breeders will not own or breed to a dog with those suspect genetics.

A>You REALLY need to think about the reasons why you want to breed. If it’s not to better the gene pool and help create a better Labrador retriever and instead “as a good lesson for the kids” or “because I love her so much” then that is NOT good reasonings to breed. You can watch YouTube videos of dogs breeding, giving birth, etc.
Think about this. Not only are you going to spend a bit of money to have her appropriately tested, but then you (if wanting to be responsible) will need to find a reputable breeder (which will be hard since again it’s not an approved color) and then you will need to pay a stud fee. And then you have to either do progesterone testing or house the stud or pay them to house your bitch to breed. Then you have to consider costs of ultrasound to confirm pregnancy. Cost of emergency C-section if she can’t whelp on her own. What if she has 16 puppies? Are you going to be able to find 16 puppies homes? What if 5 years down the road they don’t want their dog anymore. A responsible breeder will take the dog back. Are you willing to do that? Are you able to feed 18 mouths if you don’t find them homes. Do you have a set up to whelp out a litter? Can you afford the litter checks with first sets of vaccines and health certificates? If you are, FABULOUS!

A> I’m sorry to be blunt but. Silver is not a recessive colour in Labradors. It is not not an allowed colour in the Labrador and it is felt that the dilute gene came from crossing with weimeriner. It is not a pure Labrador.
What would be the goal in breeding this dog. It is not a good representation of the breed and will not better the breed by reproducing.
Are you looking to make puppies that will be good pets for people? Are you prepared for the cost and responsibility of raising a litter. What if she dies while whelping. Are you prepared for that possibility. What if she needs an emergency C section.
Breeding dogs doesn’t make money if you're doing it well. By the time you pay for all the clearances and vet bills.
I am over 10K in to my current litter. I will break even assuming everyone stays healthy


« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 02:00:08 am by Desi »
  • Desmond the Ragdoll, Duma the Savannah, and Baby Bobbie Dylan child of the mean streets, poetess and occasional musician.
I think it's fixed now
 

Ragdoll Cats United!

Re: What is a Reputable Breeder?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2021, 09:31:11 pm »

Tags: