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Does this look like a Ragdoll?  It's a mixed breed cat.
Frequently Asked Questions about The Ragdoll Cat / Re: What is a Reputable Breeder?
« Last post by Desi on December 30, 2021, 09:31:11 pm »
This is about dogs, but much of the same logic can be applied to cats.  Will notate where the logic is different (because cat breed means something different than dog breed)  This is a discussion amongst veterinarians.  Veterinarians, while typically (99.999999%, or really 100% in my experience) unknowledgeable about the cat fancy, are more likely to be knowledgeable about the dog fancy.

Q> Why is color so concerning when all health parameters are met?

A> Because in many cases the colour was introduced through cross breeding or may be associated with a health concern. A bit different when it is naturally occurring in the breed. Also note that many GSDs "carry" DM - and there's a lot more to health testing than just DNA testing.

The issues often lies with the initial introduction of the colour. Then you get "colour breeders" producing off standard puppies for extra money. Often these people do minimal or no health testing, no titles on the breeding dogs etc - just not ethical breeding. There are exceptions but mostly you aren't going to find ethically bred off colour dogs because reputable breeders aren't going to try to create them

Because the color indicates the presence of another breed in the pedigree of the dog. Responsible breeders don't breed mixed breed dogs and try to pass them off as purebred.

Breeding your dog would not be considered responsible, and whoever she came from was not a reputable breeder because they did not follow the breed standard. Breeding dogs is way more than just health testing, it is also making sure the pups you produce meet the physical characteristics of their breed, and have the correct temperament (which varies between breeds).

 the fact that your dog has two copies of DM gene demonstrates that she was not from a thoughtful ethical breeder. And in previous posts it seems she also had an umbilical hernia so she had a few things that would make it not ethical to breed her.

Q> yes. My breeder friend bought her from Russia. Found out that she had these issues and sold her for a pet when I promised to spay. That's ethical breeding. Having paid thousands for a dog and then taking a huge hit by selling her for pennies with the new owner knowing what's wrong.

A>In addition, as far as GSD go, to get colors like “blue” you must either breed 2 dogs who both carry the recessive genes but don’t express them and hope they will produce it, or 2 that do express that color. So in your situation, was the breeder trying to get that color? I would assume probably so, and in addition anything with “silver” means the pigment is poor (dilute) which is another thing good GSD breeders want to breed against, not for. When you look to produce a color that is recessive, you are narrowing the gene pool significantly. GSD are not a healthy breed already, so when you are narrowing the gene pool that much, finding a dog worthy of being bred is extremely hard.
To be an ethical GSD breeder, the dog should pass all health testing, come from generations of dogs that also passed, and be temperament tested (shown, competed in dog sports, etc this is sort of a can of worms but SOMETHING) because there are far too may shepherds being produced with poor temperaments. Good breeders often go through lots of females to get one that meets all the criteria.
Off color shepherds cannot be shown, and it is very rare to see them competing in dog sports.
There’s so much more that goes into dog breeding than just passing a list of health testing. That’s the tip of the iceberg. You have to also look at the whole dog (for example, does this dog have allergy issues? Auto immune disease? Missing teeth or an off bite? Does the dog have anxiety issues or can’t be handled by strangers without having a melt down? Things like that. Some criteria are in the grey area, some are acceptable or not depending on who you ask. I would never buy a puppy from parents who got car sick or have less than good food drive for example).

I should also add that my opinion on long-coat Dals is the same as silver Labs. Even while genetically possible, it’s not breed standard. Standards are set for a reason. When you start breeding for “non standard”, that’s when the waters get muddied and cross-breds get passed off as “purebreds” Labs get bred with Wiemeraners, Pomeranians become merle in color, etc. In my book, breeding off-standard has no place in responsible, ethical breeding.

Reputable breeders aren't going to even have recessive traits that are potentially linked to another breed. E.g., silver Labradors, white Dobermans, merle Frenchies, etc will never show up in a well bred litter because the breeders will not own or breed to a dog with those suspect genetics.

A>You REALLY need to think about the reasons why you want to breed. If it’s not to better the gene pool and help create a better Labrador retriever and instead “as a good lesson for the kids” or “because I love her so much” then that is NOT good reasonings to breed. You can watch YouTube videos of dogs breeding, giving birth, etc.
Think about this. Not only are you going to spend a bit of money to have her appropriately tested, but then you (if wanting to be responsible) will need to find a reputable breeder (which will be hard since again it’s not an approved color) and then you will need to pay a stud fee. And then you have to either do progesterone testing or house the stud or pay them to house your bitch to breed. Then you have to consider costs of ultrasound to confirm pregnancy. Cost of emergency C-section if she can’t whelp on her own. What if she has 16 puppies? Are you going to be able to find 16 puppies homes? What if 5 years down the road they don’t want their dog anymore. A responsible breeder will take the dog back. Are you willing to do that? Are you able to feed 18 mouths if you don’t find them homes. Do you have a set up to whelp out a litter? Can you afford the litter checks with first sets of vaccines and health certificates? If you are, FABULOUS!

A> I’m sorry to be blunt but. Silver is not a recessive colour in Labradors. It is not not an allowed colour in the Labrador and it is felt that the dilute gene came from crossing with weimeriner. It is not a pure Labrador.
What would be the goal in breeding this dog. It is not a good representation of the breed and will not better the breed by reproducing.
Are you looking to make puppies that will be good pets for people? Are you prepared for the cost and responsibility of raising a litter. What if she dies while whelping. Are you prepared for that possibility. What if she needs an emergency C section.
Breeding dogs doesn’t make money if you're doing it well. By the time you pay for all the clearances and vet bills.
I am over 10K in to my current litter. I will break even assuming everyone stays healthy

Q&A with a Veterinarian, regarding dogs, but also applies to the Ragdoll/mink "controversy" (it's not a controversy among reputable breeders):

Q>Hello veterinarians, we are considering getting a Goldendoodle puppy. I understand this isn’t an AKC breed and many consider it a mutt, but I’m specifically looking for the temperament qualities of a golden and a poodle and not interested in a pure bred dog since I live on an island where the gene pools can be questionable. I‘m interested what vets have seen with the general health of these dogs and their opinion.

Vet 1>It is a mutt, not "many consider it a mutt"
Most of the breeding stock comes from bad breeders, where the temperament is iffy to start with, because good breeders will not allow their puppies into mixed breeding. The two breeds also don't match personality wise, so the puppies are often reactive or super sensitive and fearful (even to fear aggression level). Often the breeding pair is picked on "who's available to breed" not "who matches the best".
Then there's coat care. If you mix soft coat of the Golden to the curl of the Poodle, you end up with soft curl - matting is only preventable by daily brushing or keeping the dog shaved. It takes many hours of the day, and going to groomer is good 80-100$ every 6 weeks. Harsh coat of poodle doesn't mat like that.
And there's issues with "breeders" - many do it for money, without paying any mind to health of the parents or the puppies. There's lack of socialization and care.
Oh, and the health issues of course. Hip issues, eye issues, allergies.. .
Get a purebred from a good breeder.
Dr. K.

Vet 2>Please read the file on how to find an excellent and ethical breeder. You may end up having to travel to find an appropriate dog.
What characteristics are you looking for?
One (of the many) reasons to never ever buy a mixed breed dog, like the one you are describing, is because there is no way to know what characteristics you will end up with (and that goes for coat, temperament and everything else). And these people are not doing a good job breeding. They are not health testing and they are not looking to produce better dogs with each litter, they are simply looking to scam people out of money for a fad mixed breed dog (aka a mutt).
Do not support this, get a different dog.
Dr. P
You've heard people say "find a Reputable breeder"--but what exactly does that mean?

It does not mean a random person with big fluffy cats that is selling them in your neighborhood, or in your state.
It does not mean a breeder your next door neighbor knows about.
It does not mean someone selling cats that your coworker or boss or whomever says is "good" because the kitten they bought appears healthy.

What it means is someone who has participated in the Cat Fancy, and has a good reputation *within the Cat Fancy.*  This means someone who shows/has shown their cats, which means that a judge has evaluated at least one cat and the cat's pedigree.  It means that other cat club members know and know from firsthand knowledge this person to be breeding cats to club standard (appearance, health, personality, pedigree).  It *could* mean that this person has had cats placed or won in competition, but it doesn't have to (although wouldn't it be fun to adopt a mismarked offspring from a Grand Champion?).


How to find a Ragdoll cat breeder. Here is one way to approach finding a reputable breeder. This is likely good for any breed of cat, but will address Ragdolls since this is the Ragdoll subreddit.

A cat is only a purebred cat because it meets the standards of the cat associations. The standards set by the cat associations include things such as physical characteristics and personality, but they also include lineage and whether outcrosses are permitted. Ragoll standards for all clubs/registries currently state: Outcrosses: none. This means that a kitten with one Ragdoll parent is not a Ragdoll. A cat that happens to look like a Ragdoll is not a Ragdoll. A cat from a shelter is not a Ragdoll. Note that these other options are still great pets, but if you are trying to buy a Ragdoll, it's likely that you'd actually like to get a Ragdoll for your money.

The best way to make sure you get an actual Ragdoll (and not a cat that happens to look like a Ragdoll but isn't one) is to find a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder is one that participates in the cat fancy: is a member in good standing of a cat club, participates in cat shows, and has a standing (not just "membership" but actual standing) in at least one cat association--in the US, that would be TICA, CFA, or ACFA. Note that "member of TICA" means nothing if the member has no standing within the organization. TICA does not certify any breeders as fit and even state on their website that it is up to prospective buyers to do their own due diligence on any potential breeder before conducting business.

The best way to find a reputable breeder is to attend cat shows and talk to breeders. Since attending a cat show isn't exactly easy in this year of the pandemic, the next best way is to research past cat show entrants and talk to them. This isn't as hard as it might seem, as TICA and CFA publish lists for your convenience: Here is The Cat Fancier's Association (CFA)'s "Top cat list" and TICA's "list of champions" Ragdoll Fancier's Worldwide "Cream of the Crop"

You might be tempted to check out club "member lists" but remember the caveat above, membership in a club is not enough, the breeder should also have standing--proof that they've participated in cat fancy activities. They do not need to have grand champion lines (but wouldn't it be nice?), but when a cat is shown, the pedigree is checked, because a cat can only be shown in a category for which it is eligible. Telltale signs that they're a backyard breeder include no standing in any association (other than "member of" or the false "TICA certified" which does not exist), "rare" colored cats, or any cats that are mink, sepia, solid, or white, as none of these cats would be eligible to be shown, since they are mixed breeds and not Ragdolls, and they do not meet the standards set by the cat clubs.

Once you've narrowed down a list of potential reputable breeders in your area, TALK to people. Ask for references. Then talk to the references. Ask breeders about other breeders. Much easier to do at a cat show, but there are many ways to communicate.

Remember that your goal is to find a breeder that breeds to breed standards and "to better the breed," which essentially means breeding healthy cats that meet those standards. Every Ragdoll cat standard starts with the assertion that a Ragdoll is a blue eyed, colorpointed cat. Only a colorpointed cat will have blue eyes; only blue eyed cats will be colorpointed. Many reputable breeders prominently display a website badge that says "True Ragdolls Have BLUE Eyes Because they are a Pointed Breed."
(This article still needs some work.)

The only reason why there are breeds at all is the Cat Fancy.  The Cat Fancy is the totality of clubs of cat breeders who are breeding as a hobby to show their cats and create beautiful, healthy cats.  The Cat Fancy decides on recognized breeds that can be shown and catalogs the standards for each breed.  Breeders then "breed to" the standards decided on by the clubs.

In order for a cat to be shown, the the cat must have a pedigree, which is maintained in the registry of the club (ie. TICA, CFA, etc).  The registry is the way the cat club tracks club cats and kittens.  The information in the registry is checked and verified only when a cat is would take an army of people to verify data entered into the databases.  Both fortunately and unfortunately, it's very easy to register a litter of kittens.  To register in TICA, for example, only one of the litter's parents must be of that breed.  The reasons for rules such as this are to track new breeds which allow outcrosses.  For older, more developed breeds such as Ragdolls, no outcrosses are allowed, meaning if a cat has only one Ragdoll parent, the cat is not a Ragdoll.  This is why knowing how to read a pedigree is important.  If you don't know how to read a pedigree, go to a show and learn how!

If someone is breeding cats and not doing it for show, then why are they breeding?  Breeding is expensive, both monetarily and emotionally.  Someone not breeding for show is doing so to make money.  So how do you make money breeding cats?  Well, you start with "less expensive" breeding cats.  Reputable breeders charge a premium for breeding rights, and new breeders are required to have a mentor to enter breeding.  Someone breeding to make money will avoid spending money at all costs, often acquiring cats that look like Ragdolls but aren't actually Ragdolls.  They will cut costs with if someone is *not* breeding for show, they are breeding to make money. Breeding cats is not a good way to make money, it's too costly, even if you cut costs. So if the person is breeding to make money, they have to cut a whole lot of costs, including important ones that affect the health of cats and kittens. If you're going to spend money on a cat, it should at least be healthy; otherwise, rescue a life from the shelter.
Frequently Asked Questions about The Ragdoll Cat / HCM in Ragdolls (and all cats)
« Last post by Desi on February 27, 2021, 04:59:14 am »

HCM is a very common disease of *all* cats, it is not a disease specific to Ragdolls. However, Ragdoll breeders worked very hard to eliminate genetic HCM from their lines some time ago, because HCM was becoming rampant in the Ragdoll world, and it needed to be stopped. The result was that scientists were able identify the gene associated with HCM, specifically for Ragdolls (Maine Coons also did the same thing, this all applies to them as well). So testing exists for genetic HCM for Ragdolls (and Maine Coons), and any reputable breeder would make sure that the HCM gene is not in their lines, and that all breeding cats and kittens are free of this gene.

A reputable breeder breeds *to better the breed.* Someone not breeding for this explicit purpose is not someone you want to trust to provide you with a healthy cat.

HCM is still a very, very common disease for *all* cats. The point here is that if a Ragdoll does not come from a reputable breeder that has tested their lines through the generations, there is a significantly higher chance that the cat will have genetic HCM. The chances of a non-well bred "Ragdoll" from an unknowledgable or backyard breeder having genetic HCM are even much higher than a moggie having HCM. This is why your odds of getting a healthy cat are exponentially higher with a shelter moggie that looks like a Ragdoll than a Ragdoll-looking cat advertised as a Ragdoll from an unknowledgeable breeder.

Genetic HCM is the worst form of HCM as it can come on suddenly and severely and without warning. And it affects kittens and young cats, most of whom do not grow up to be adults. It's heartbreaking.

There are also forms of HCM that cats can get as a result of age, disease, and improper nutrition, but these forms are typically found in older cats. Certainly not in a 2 year old. Again, I'm sorry for your loss.


HCM is a fairly common killer of cats of all breeds/mixed breed. Among *true* purebred Ragdolls it should be pretty rare, as cat fancy Ragdolls have worked hard to eliminate HCM from their lines, such that there is a test for a Ragdoll-specific HCM gene that should be performed on all breeding cats and therefore produce kittens that are free of congenital HCM. Amongst backyard breeders of so-called Ragdoll "variants" HCM is likely to be more common than among the general mixed breed cat population, where it is already a high %.

There is more than one form of HCM. HCM can be genetic, but typically (not always) these cats will die fairly young, under 3 years. HCM can also be a progressive disease due to diet and exercise type factors, typically affecting older cats. Both types of HCM are prevalent amongst all cats, purebred and mixed breed.

A reputable Ragdoll breeder will ensure that their breeding cats do not have genetic HCM by getting them tested, as there exists a test for Ragdoll and Maine Coon HCM genes. As for the other type of HCM, you can minimize the possibility by providing a healthy diet for your cat.


4 Year old passed away while we were sleeping in the afternoon :(

I'm very sorry for your loss.

If he came from a breeder, the parents should have been checked for the Ragdoll-specific HCM mutated gene. A well bred Ragdoll should not have this mutation. If his parents were negative for HCM and yet he had HCM, there are several organizations studying this disease that would be interested in this information. If you're up for it, it would be worthwhile to get in contact with them. UC Davis: NC State: and Winn Feline Foundation: You should also contact the breeder, as they should know that there is potentially an issue with one or both of their breeding cats.

Unfortunately HCM is a common disease in the general cat population, and it can go years without being noticed. When it is diagnosed, there are medicines that can slow the progress of the disease (and add years of life). It's unfortunate that you weren't able to do this. Again, I'm sorry for the loss of your boy.
Ragdoll Kittens / Re: Introducing Wesley ....
« Last post by Rebecca on December 20, 2020, 06:50:08 pm »
I am so bad at not checking the forums anymore
Loving these photos of your new cutie, almost gives me kitten fever lol
Ragdoll Kittens / Re: Introducing Wesley ....
« Last post by Linda on November 08, 2020, 03:07:00 pm »
This is a PURE CUTENESS OVERLOAD!!  I am so thrilled for both you and Wesley, Colleen!  What a joy it will be to have that precious little face finaly arrive to your home!  I AM SO EXCITED FOR YOU!!!  and Wesley could NOT BE ANY MORE ADORABLE!!! 
Ragdoll Kittens / Introducing Wesley ....
« Last post by Codysmom on October 24, 2020, 09:41:37 am »
I had not planned this at all, but suddenly out of the blue the breeder I got Fozzy and Katy from contacted me and said he had a litter of beautiful kittens, would I be interested in taking one? Well, I took a few days to consider it and after thinking that it might help me to get over the grief of losing my Fozzy almost a year ago and Mittens not too long after that. I decided to take the plunge and get this gorgeous seal mitted boy whom I've named Wesley. :)

The photo the breeder first showed me:
Wesley and his brothers (I've marked which one he is with a heart)




Now at 8 WEEKS OLD - the breeder sent me these yesterday.
Wesley on the left with his brother Otis on the right. My friend is taking Otis. They are so adorable!

Feline Health / Re: Is it normal for his fur to get really wet from grooming?
« Last post by Codysmom on October 24, 2020, 09:25:24 am »
Not sure whether it's normal or not, but I've noticed at times my babies will be quite wet from grooming too. Not every time, but I have noticed it.
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